only one change

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
EdwardE
Experienced Shotgunner
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:55 am

only one change

Post by EdwardE »

I recently saw a picture of a WW II GI with a shotgun. The snapshot didn't appear to reveal any specialized item that would make it a dedicated fighting weapon other than the operator using it. It got me pondering.
I'm sure most of us would agree that the basic 870 platform is one that allows for a multitude of configurations in "building" a HD/tactical dedicated weapon; stocks and forearms, rails, lights, scopes, sights, magazine extensions, and the list goes on and on. I certainly enjoy selecting the pieces and parts (however limited) that I feel would improve my 870. Some of the weapons I've seen appear very function-orientated while others, at the opposite end of the spectrum, are hard to tell if there's an 870 actually in there. I don't view one build as superior to another; to each their own.
What if, however, you could only pick one. What would that be? What would that one item (accessory, upgrade, component) be for you (other than it goes BANG when the trigger is pulled)?
Last edited by EdwardE on Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Reaper
Active Shotgunner
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:16 am

Re: only one change

Post by Reaper »

I would replace the factory magazine follower. Quick, easy, and cheap!
User avatar
Synchronizor
Elite Shotgunner
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:04 am
Location: The Inland Northwest
Contact:

Re: only one change

Post by Synchronizor »

EdwardE wrote:What if, however, you could only pick one. What would that be? What would that one item be for you (other than it goes BANG when the trigger is pulled)?
Not sure what you're asking, pick one what? One build or gun? One accessory or upgrade? One feature?
DaveC
Addict Shotgunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: only one change

Post by DaveC »

Easy: The only important change from a bone stock pump-action twelve gauge Remington 870 is ensuring that the stock length-of-pull fits the intended user. Done. The shotgun should *fit.*

WWII: Lemme guess: M12 Winchester or a M1897 WInchester in 12-gauge? Was he actually going into combat or just guarding PoWs, stuff in crates and boxes and pallets, or a bomber crewman working on his wing shooting?

Those shotguns would have a ventilated barrel guard to avoid burning oneself against the barrel in high-volume "combat style" shooting [interesting that Vietnam-era Marines did not think this was necessary given the duration of the typical firefight a shotgun might be involved in...] with an all-important bayonet mount.
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.
EdwardE
Experienced Shotgunner
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:55 am

Re: only one change

Post by EdwardE »

DaveC, other than eating, I'm not sure what this soldier's duties were. Of the three shotguns in the pic, it doesn't look like they have the bayonet lug of the "trench gun". Can't tell if the ventilated guard is there. Anyway, this is the pic.

Image
User avatar
Zebra62
Senior Shotgunner
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:40 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: only one change

Post by Zebra62 »

Extra ammo on/in the weapon. Whether it be a magazine extension, a side saddle or butt cuff, just need something to be able to have more than 5,6, or 7 rounds with you when you first pick it up and begin engaging targets.
The REAL definition of GUN CONTROL - The ability to keep your sights on your target.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
woodstock
New Shotgunner
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: only one change

Post by woodstock »

Light.
May not use it but very important if it's needed.
User avatar
Synchronizor
Elite Shotgunner
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:04 am
Location: The Inland Northwest
Contact:

Re: only one change

Post by Synchronizor »

Those look like 1897s in the picture.

If I had to choose only one thing to do to make a "traditional" shotgun better suited for combat roles (assuming it already had a shorter barrel, or hacking the end off a sporting barrel doesn't count as my one change), I would add a magazine extension. This would give me more shots before I was forced to reload or transition, and I would have more of a buffer during longer engagements where I would be continuously topping it off whenever I had a free moment.

Sidesaddles are nice, but extra shells can also be carried in and loaded from a pocket or belt carrier, and while it would be a little slower, it wouldn't be nearly as limiting as having a hunting gun's magazine capacity in a drawn-out gunfight. Plus, sidesaddles invariably worsen the gun's handling to some extent, while an extended magazine tube fits neatly under the barrel.
DaveC
Addict Shotgunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: only one change

Post by DaveC »

Ironically, I've made a total of *four* changes to my defensive-purpose [anti-personnel/"repel all boarders"] Remington 870 shotgun:

1. Per my own instructions, I've added a pistol-grip Choate youth-sized buttstock to fit me better.
2. Per Zebra62's post, I've added a four shot side-saddle to carry some extra shells in case I have to "grab and go" so-to-speak. But this is more a modification for defensive use rather than "battle" or what-have-you...
3. Per the very next post by woodstock, I've added a weapon light. [In my case an EOTech IFL]. Again, this is more in keeping with a defensive-use gun rather than a military-type modification.
4. Per Synchronizor, I have added an 18-1/2" cylinder bore barrel, but I have not increased the magazine capacity above and beyond the old "police cruiser" 4+1. An extra tube magazine does not unbalance the weapon the way a side-saddle does, but it does add weight.

As far as military use of the shotgun goes, most U.S. scatterguns had bayonet lugs [seen as important for military use], and ventilated hand guards to avoid burning hands added... Perhaps a different component or two for reliability, and no-frills parkerized finish. That is about it. Typically, these were U.S. sporting weapons adapted first to police use, and from there, to military use.
In Vietnam, the Marines pretty much got rid of anything extraneous to the Rem. 870 and pared things down: no rubber buttpad and no heat shield!

The only non-"asymmetric warfare" or non-guerrilla or non-militia organization to use shotguns in combat that comes to mind was the British during the Malaya Emergency in the 1950s. They "violated" each and every one of our "one change" rules:
1. Stock stocks.
2. No extra ammo on gun
3. No light
4. No shorter barrel; no extended magazine

They did, however, insist on one important change of their own: All *brass* shells to promote reliability what with jungle conditions swelling the cardboard/rolled paper hulls! So that might be another: Ensure your ammunition selected works 100 percent reliably with the shotgun chosen!

Cheers,
Dave
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.
User avatar
Synchronizor
Elite Shotgunner
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:04 am
Location: The Inland Northwest
Contact:

Re: only one change

Post by Synchronizor »

DaveC wrote:Those shotguns would have a ventilated barrel guard to avoid burning oneself against the barrel in high-volume "combat style" shooting [interesting that Vietnam-era Marines did not think this was necessary given the duration of the typical firefight a shotgun might be involved in...] with an all-important bayonet mount.
I believe the shotgun heat shields were added because of the bayonet mount, not so much for high-volume shooting in general. Though it doesn't date back to the World Wars, the military specification that the Mossberg 590s and 590A1s were built for (MIL-S-3443 - shotgun, 12 gauge, riot-type) explicitly states (concerning Type I shotguns that had bayonet mounts): "Type I shotguns shall be equipped with a heat shield which effectively protects the hand from the hot barrel during bayonet fighting." The Type II and III shotgun specs, which did not include bayonet lugs, did not call for heat shields.
DaveC wrote:I have added an 18-1/2" cylinder bore barrel, but I have not increased the magazine capacity above and beyond the old "police cruiser" 4+1. An extra tube magazine does not unbalance the weapon the way a side-saddle does, but it does add weight.
Actually, an extended tube with 2-3 additional shells will usually add less weight than 4-8 rounds in a sidesaddle. Of course, added weight at the muzzle end is a different animal than added weight back on the receiver.

For me, the bigger downside of a full-length magazine extension - especially the two-piece +2 and +3 extensions I use - is complexity. Taking the gun down or switching barrels is a lot more of a hassle with a clamped, two-piece extension than it is with a magazine cap. So while a full extension would be at the top of my list for a full-on go-to-war build, I'll often run a magazine cap or a single-piece +1 extension (which is essentially a slightly longer magazine cap) for HD.

I think this is a good illustration of how all modifications have their advantages and disadvantages. Even magazine extensions or sidesaddles - items every "tactical operator" considers must-have additions - aren't essential elements of an effective weapon, and won't always be a net benefit in every situation. I wish more of the community would understand this principle and pass it on to newcomers, rather than trying to copy a LE or military build intended for completely different roles, or blindly following and regurgitating the same list of "must-have upgrades" with little to no contextual consideration.
Post Reply