Hi folks, i'm new here.
I have a little cleaning related problem with my two 870 Police shotguns. One is 9 years old police model with wood furniture and the other one is 3 years old police marine magnum. It's a genuine police marine, made in Ilon, NY plant with 25047 number. It has smoothbore fixed cyl barrel with rifle sights, forged extractor, metal trigger assembly, steel mag tube spring and other features which indicate that it's actually a real PMM and not regular 870 marine.
It shoots great, they both shoot great with every type of shotshells, but i can't get the lead deposits out of the barrel no matter what kind of a cleaner or technique i use. I mostly shoot heavy stuff through it. 00-000 buckshot, foster slugs and a few brenneke 3" magnums here and there.
I've used hoppes No9 (although i try to avoid agressive solvents with ammonia in them), Milfoam forrest foam, balistol oil spray and boresnake. I've managed to remove 50-70% of lead out of the barrel but the rest just wont come out.
I don't know what kind of barrel finish does my police marine has, but i read somewhere it is polished, while my other older police model is not? The only option i have left is a tornado brush i just purchased, but i'm afraid of scratching the barrel polish on PMM with this hard (steel??) tornado brush.
What do you guys suggest? Should i try a tornado brush or should i just accept the fact that certain amount of lead will be forever in the barrel. Is that bad long term?
Appreciate any help with this. Thanks
Remington 870P lead deposits wont go away
Remington 870P lead deposits wont go away
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Re: Remington 870P lead deposits wont go away
We see this quite a lot in the Armorer courses we teach. Generally once you have scrubbed, and scrubbed, and are not able to get the last of the fouling out, is usually due to it being melted plastic. Most shotshells have a plastic wad, that the projectile of shot sits in. The burning gunpowder pushes the plastic wad down the barrel, which in turn when the shot or projectile is inside the wad, means that the burning gunpowder is melting the wad.
When you generally scrub a barrel, you should be using a shotgun borebrush that matches the gauge, so if you are shooting 12gauge then use a 12gauge bore brush. The best way to use this brush is wet, either by dipping the brush in solvent or spraying solvent down the barrel, or use a cotton patch soaked in solvent. Use the borebrush on a good shotgun rod, and scrub the barrel with the brush and the solvent combined. The bristle borebrush will scratch the fouling to allow the solvent to break up the fouling to get it loose.
Once fouling is loose, then you can generally use a tornado type brush to pull the fouling out. The tornado brush is basically a screen like weave of metal the pulls the loose fouling off the barrel. You need to break up the fouling with the borebrush and solvent in order for the tornado brush to pull the loosened fouling away from the barrel.
When it comes to tornado brushes, there are generally 2 types, one is the stainless steel one from Hoppes, the other is a copper based one from companies like ProShot and Boretech (There may be others but that is what comes to mind at the moment). The Hoppes being stainless steel is harder than most barrel steel, and can scratch it, it is what we use on Police shotguns, but not something I would use on a high end custom Italian sports car gun that cost $10k or more, as the stainless could scratch the barrel. For the high end guns if I am afraid of leaving a scratch in them, this is where I opt for the copper bristle ones, as the copper or bronze phosphorous ones are usually softer than the barrel steel and won't harm it.
Next comes down to solvents and the type of ammunition being used in the gun. Most traditional birdshot, buckshot and slugs are generally loaded with smokeless powder, and this can be removed with most traditional bore solvents like Hoppe's 9, Butches Boreshine, Ballistol, Shooters Choice, etc (Sorry if I didn't mention everyone's favorite or go to solvents as there are too many to list). These traditional solvents are usually petroleum based, which are good at removing smokeless gunpowder fouling.
In the Law Enforcement / Military world, some of the specialty ammunition uses black powder. Most traditional solvents that I mentioned above don't work well on black powder fouling, as we see people scrub and scrub, then can't figure out why the fouling won't come out (especially on the LE/MIL less lethal ammo), as it is black powder fouling that is built up. Once they treat it as black powder fouling it will come out. So what works on black powder fouling is generally a water based solvent. What we use in our workshop and in the Armorer courses we teach is Slip2000 725 Cleaner/Degreaser, as it is water based and takes out the black powder and smokeless powder fouling very well.
Once you get no more gun powder residue fouling coming out, and still see a build up left, it is generally melted plastic from the wad. If you treat it as plastic, it will come out easily. What we use to get plastic out is Slip2000 Choke Tube Cleaner, which breaks up the plastic fouling very well. During Armorer courses we have people use it on the stubborn heavily fouled barrels, and they get to see the plastic coming out often times in chunks and strips.
You also mention a Mariner model, which are generally done in an electroless nickel finish. What we see on a lot of the Law Enforcement guns that have an electroless nickel finish, and a lot of the chrome lined barrels on Benell, is a lot more melted plastic fouling. I personally believe this is due to this type of finish holding the heat in the barrel slightly longer, so the barrels tend to run hotter during combat/police type training, and this extra heat melts more plastic, resulting in more build up.
Slip2000 Products can be purchased direct from Slip2000. You will also find it at most quality gun shops, gunsmith suppliers like Brownells and Midway, and many gun manufactures also supply it
Just my $.02
CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
WeaponsArmorer
SLR15 Rifles
Defensive Edge Training
When you generally scrub a barrel, you should be using a shotgun borebrush that matches the gauge, so if you are shooting 12gauge then use a 12gauge bore brush. The best way to use this brush is wet, either by dipping the brush in solvent or spraying solvent down the barrel, or use a cotton patch soaked in solvent. Use the borebrush on a good shotgun rod, and scrub the barrel with the brush and the solvent combined. The bristle borebrush will scratch the fouling to allow the solvent to break up the fouling to get it loose.
Once fouling is loose, then you can generally use a tornado type brush to pull the fouling out. The tornado brush is basically a screen like weave of metal the pulls the loose fouling off the barrel. You need to break up the fouling with the borebrush and solvent in order for the tornado brush to pull the loosened fouling away from the barrel.
When it comes to tornado brushes, there are generally 2 types, one is the stainless steel one from Hoppes, the other is a copper based one from companies like ProShot and Boretech (There may be others but that is what comes to mind at the moment). The Hoppes being stainless steel is harder than most barrel steel, and can scratch it, it is what we use on Police shotguns, but not something I would use on a high end custom Italian sports car gun that cost $10k or more, as the stainless could scratch the barrel. For the high end guns if I am afraid of leaving a scratch in them, this is where I opt for the copper bristle ones, as the copper or bronze phosphorous ones are usually softer than the barrel steel and won't harm it.
Next comes down to solvents and the type of ammunition being used in the gun. Most traditional birdshot, buckshot and slugs are generally loaded with smokeless powder, and this can be removed with most traditional bore solvents like Hoppe's 9, Butches Boreshine, Ballistol, Shooters Choice, etc (Sorry if I didn't mention everyone's favorite or go to solvents as there are too many to list). These traditional solvents are usually petroleum based, which are good at removing smokeless gunpowder fouling.
In the Law Enforcement / Military world, some of the specialty ammunition uses black powder. Most traditional solvents that I mentioned above don't work well on black powder fouling, as we see people scrub and scrub, then can't figure out why the fouling won't come out (especially on the LE/MIL less lethal ammo), as it is black powder fouling that is built up. Once they treat it as black powder fouling it will come out. So what works on black powder fouling is generally a water based solvent. What we use in our workshop and in the Armorer courses we teach is Slip2000 725 Cleaner/Degreaser, as it is water based and takes out the black powder and smokeless powder fouling very well.
Once you get no more gun powder residue fouling coming out, and still see a build up left, it is generally melted plastic from the wad. If you treat it as plastic, it will come out easily. What we use to get plastic out is Slip2000 Choke Tube Cleaner, which breaks up the plastic fouling very well. During Armorer courses we have people use it on the stubborn heavily fouled barrels, and they get to see the plastic coming out often times in chunks and strips.
You also mention a Mariner model, which are generally done in an electroless nickel finish. What we see on a lot of the Law Enforcement guns that have an electroless nickel finish, and a lot of the chrome lined barrels on Benell, is a lot more melted plastic fouling. I personally believe this is due to this type of finish holding the heat in the barrel slightly longer, so the barrels tend to run hotter during combat/police type training, and this extra heat melts more plastic, resulting in more build up.
Slip2000 Products can be purchased direct from Slip2000. You will also find it at most quality gun shops, gunsmith suppliers like Brownells and Midway, and many gun manufactures also supply it
Just my $.02
CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
WeaponsArmorer
SLR15 Rifles
Defensive Edge Training
Re: Remington 870P lead deposits wont go away
Thank you for a very helpfull and detailed reply.
I must mention that i mostly shoot foster&brenneke slugs and italian made 00 9 pellet buckshots (fiocchi, B&P) that don't use traditional cup for shells like some US brands like Federal or Remington 8 shell buckshot. These brands use roll crimped shells with plastic bior wad that is under the shells and don't hold the shells in the cup.
Thus the pellets (and slugs for that matter) come within direct contact with barrel walls. Unfortunately i can't get a hold of cup shotgun shells from Remington or Federal, because i'm from Europe and here we have mostly italian shotshell brands which for some reason (don't know why- but it really makes me wonder) all use plastic bior wad. Only little target/trap shotshells have a cup. Which i never shoot since i'm not into trap/skeet.
So this is not plastic deposit what you see on my photo of my 870 PM barrel, but pure lead. Which is a nightmare because it wont go out. I own 5 shotguns and these lead deposits are the worst with two 870 P models and benelli M4.
You are right about hotness of the barrel. Those 3 shotguns get very hot after just a few stout rounds, while my dirt cheap mossberg maverick that have half thinner barrel walls than my remington 870 police and benelli m4 doesn't get that hot. Lmao.
I will follow your cleaning advice (even tho it is the lead not the plastic) regarding making the scratches with bristle brush and then applying solvent.
Just want to ask if the bristle brush is safe for the polished barrel of my 870 PM? It wont scratch the polish off?
And about the solvent, i used to have synthetic hoppes No9 blend that was safe to use on all my firearms.
But i couldn't get another one so i got hoppes nitro powder solvent in a small glass bottle- which is apparently more agressive and has ammonia in it- so i'm kinda reluctant to use it on certain barrels.
What do you suggest? Is this particular hoppes safe?
Thank you
Tony
I must mention that i mostly shoot foster&brenneke slugs and italian made 00 9 pellet buckshots (fiocchi, B&P) that don't use traditional cup for shells like some US brands like Federal or Remington 8 shell buckshot. These brands use roll crimped shells with plastic bior wad that is under the shells and don't hold the shells in the cup.
Thus the pellets (and slugs for that matter) come within direct contact with barrel walls. Unfortunately i can't get a hold of cup shotgun shells from Remington or Federal, because i'm from Europe and here we have mostly italian shotshell brands which for some reason (don't know why- but it really makes me wonder) all use plastic bior wad. Only little target/trap shotshells have a cup. Which i never shoot since i'm not into trap/skeet.
So this is not plastic deposit what you see on my photo of my 870 PM barrel, but pure lead. Which is a nightmare because it wont go out. I own 5 shotguns and these lead deposits are the worst with two 870 P models and benelli M4.
You are right about hotness of the barrel. Those 3 shotguns get very hot after just a few stout rounds, while my dirt cheap mossberg maverick that have half thinner barrel walls than my remington 870 police and benelli m4 doesn't get that hot. Lmao.
I will follow your cleaning advice (even tho it is the lead not the plastic) regarding making the scratches with bristle brush and then applying solvent.
Just want to ask if the bristle brush is safe for the polished barrel of my 870 PM? It wont scratch the polish off?
And about the solvent, i used to have synthetic hoppes No9 blend that was safe to use on all my firearms.
But i couldn't get another one so i got hoppes nitro powder solvent in a small glass bottle- which is apparently more agressive and has ammonia in it- so i'm kinda reluctant to use it on certain barrels.
What do you suggest? Is this particular hoppes safe?
Thank you
Tony