Rem 870 as swivel gun

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
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DaveC
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Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by DaveC » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:20 pm

In the "everything old is new again" department, there are articles from L. Thompson and others about the utility or renewed interest in so-called "spreader chokes" or "duck-bill chokes" to flatten shot spread from No.4 buckshot in a 12-ga. along a more horizontal plane at a 2:1 ratio or even 4:1.

http://www.paradigmsrp.com/srp-defense- ... -spreader/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... -spreader/

From Vietnam-era navy M37s to modern-day Rem 870s with chokes. Admittedly, a very expensive choke modification. Apparently doubles duty as a "breacher choke." I'd think that such a choke modification just might result in some liability issues and so on, but on the other hand could be a boon for the "don't have to aim a shotgun" school of un-informed shotgunning... And, perhaps, just the thing for folks with limited eyesight who want an HD weapon.
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Synchronizor
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Re: Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by Synchronizor » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:56 pm

I remember reading about these, and I can't imagine any benefit. Big shocker here - buckshot pellets are crappy performers when it comes to terminal effectiveness. They're effective purely due to their quantity-over-quality approach. Even with #4 buckshot, there are not nearly enough pellets in a shell to make a birdshot-style pattern (where the pattern is larger than the target to improve the chances of a hit) effective against large creatures.

Assuming this thing actually works and patterns consistently (big "if"), it basically guarantees that a majority of the buckshot pellets will miss the target. That not only reduces effectiveness, it increases the chances of collateral damage from those missed pellets. And how much weight and length does this thing add to the muzzle? As for recoil reduction, everyone claims that about their products; how about some actual data? Even the breacher "functionality" is pointless, a stand-off is not required for that in the first place.

If you actually want a wider pattern, basic cylinder or diffusion choke tubes are very cheap. This thing is a complete waste of $200 that would be better spent on training, or more effective sights for those with bad eyesight.

DaveC
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Re: Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by DaveC » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:04 pm

I'm inclined to agree, Synchronizor. Apparently the initial idea was for CQB use aboard ships where "repell all boarders" and literally "sweeping the decks" was a requirement. L. Thompson's article acknowledges that it would be a huge liability for LE. There is always the "turn it sideways" approach so that the 2:1 ovoid-ish "pattern" would spread vertically rather than horizontally.

Some No.4 buck loads have 27 pellets, while others fully 34! That type of load combined with the so-called "duck bill choke" would really put the 'scatter' in "scatter gun," no?

Personally, and perhaps like you, I favor the tight patterning reduced-recoil buckshot loads from a regular cylinder bore. The last thing I want is for patterns opening more widely, although I do have a stash somewhere of that strange old Federal #4 shot "rapid opening" defensive shell. Perhaps I'll have to dig it out and do some non-scientific testing...

I totally agree that money is almost always better spent on training! Aside from repulsing a bunch of Somali pirates or something it is hard to find a rationale for a spreader choke, certainly. ;)
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Re: Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by Synchronizor » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:28 pm

DaveC wrote:Some No.4 buck loads have 27 pellets, while others fully 34! That type of load combined with the so-called "duck bill choke" would really put the 'scatter' in "scatter gun," no?
Not really, in my mind. Even with magnum #4B loads, there just aren't not enough pellets to get a pattern that's big enough to make up for not aiming, but also dense enough to ensure you'll get the multiple vital hits and/or heavy trauma needed for a reliable, fast stop.

Still, since you bring it up, I do love #4B. It still gives adequate penetration for close-up encounters, but its small diameter lets you really ramp up the pellet counts for a considerable advantage in terms of vital hit probability. And since it's less than one third the diameter of a 12ga bore, it can be stacked in ideal 6/7-pellet tiers, providing a ton of load options.

In 2.75" 12ga shells, you can choose from 21 pellets, which is the equivalent of a low-recoil 8-pellet 00B load, 24 pellets, which is very close to the shot mass of the classic 9-pellet 00B load, 27 pellets, which is slightly heavier but makes for a very efficient and consistent stack, or 34 pellets, which is a hefty short magnum with more lead than 12 pellets of 00B. Then, if you want to go really nuts, there are 41-pellet 3" loads and 54-pellet 3.5" loads.

Personally, I like the 27-pellet loads. They are a bit on the stiff side, but still manageable, and I get excellent patterns out of them because of the way they're packed.

DaveC
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Re: Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by DaveC » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:58 pm

Certainly the 27-pellet No. 4 buckshot is what I have loaded for HD now that I live in a denser urban setting than I used to. Back when I was in a more sub-urban/quasi-rural area I favored No. 1 buck with 16 pellets or the 8 or 9 pellet 00 buck reduced recoil loads, which patterned very well--read, slow opening, tight patterns.

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that the LE locally used to use No.4 buck, but that this was frowned upon in cases where armed police actions took place around automobiles and whatnot due to lack of penetration and so forth.

Oh, and thanks very much for the consistent quality video postings on the 870! :idea: :)
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Synchronizor
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Re: Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by Synchronizor » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:05 pm

DaveC wrote:I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that the LE locally used to use No.4 buck, but that this was frowned upon in cases where armed police actions took place around automobiles and whatnot due to lack of penetration and so forth.
That's my understanding as well. Police departments tried a #4B "urban load" after experiencing pass-through with 00B during close-in engagements that in some cases led to collateral injuries or deaths. But the #4B proved to be unreliable through car doors, windshields and other barriers. Even range can neuter #4B; the smaller the pellet, the faster it'll shed velocity, and #4B generally doesn't have much extra penetration to begin with (another reason I like the Remington #4B shells is that they're loaded to a healthy 1325 FPS, whereas defensive #4B loads from other manufacturers are often in the 1100s and 1200s).

Just goes to show that there's no universal best buckshot size for every situation, everything's a compromise. I love #4B for HD where nothing's in the way and distances are very close, but when I have my 870 with me in the woods or on the road, I switch over to 00B. #1B is a decent middle ground, and some applications call for just that, but #1B won't have as much penetration as 00B or 000B, and it won't match the pellet count and energy transfer rate of equivalent #3B or #4B loads.
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shootall
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Re: Rem 870 as swivel gun

Post by shootall » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:55 pm

3.5 inch 12 ga. #4 BUCK LOADS HOLD 54 SHOT. :D
Best thing to consider is plain lead shot tends to spread more than plated shot. Use what works but adding gimmicks might be dangerous . Maybe get a screw in choke installed and try different ones . maybe have one custom reamed .

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